A preliminary note on dealing with people in finance:
No sooner than 24 hours after I posted about how Peer to Peer lending is quite risky, I receive an email from Mickie Boone, who is the director of Public Relations of Lending Club. I do not believe I am breaching any confidentiality of email when she stated that:
Lending Club has always implemented tighter credit policies and invested heavily in collections, and as a result is now 3 times bigger than Prosper ($7.1M in Dec. for Lending Club against $2.2M for Prosper). Our historical default rate across ALL loans is around 3% and we produced an average of 9.68% net annualized returns.
She must be doing her homework by having good Google Alerts set to inform her of anybody writing about her employer or her competitors. Although the email was clearly marketing material, it did not feel like spam and was well crafted although it felt like she has sent something similar to many other writers on the internet. In fact, by me writing about this, she probably succeeded in increasing exposure to her employer, which is her job.
In her email, she also stated that she desired to speak with me, and to let her know when I was available to do so. After my horrific experience with exempt-offering limited partnerships (see “Worst Move” on He won’t play against the Kasparovs), one rule of mine that I religiously adhere to is to let the documentation speak, and to only let management’s words be colour in determining the credibility of the firm’s leadership.
When dealing with people from a financial perspective, you tend to take a liking to them. This is why I will never make a good financial adviser – they make their money through sales commissions, and in order to do that, you need to appear to be likable to gain clients that taking a liking to yourself. I am not a likable person when it comes to finance. I already felt like I knew Ms. Boone right after reading her email. The problem is that doing so clouds my financial judgment which is detrimental in making good financial decisions. The documentation should do most of the speaking.
Lending Club vs. Prosper:
Lending Club’s website is slightly easier to get information from than Prosper. In addition, Lending Club doesn’t make the mistake of having to register to get certain information (e.g. for Prosper’s secondary marketplace). Lending Club also has their entire loan portfolio available for a convenient 10 megabyte Excel download, something I don’t see on Prosper. They also give good metrics with respect to loan performance, while with Prosper, you have a dig a little deeper, but at least not have to log in to get some quantitative results.
Both sites openly share their SEC prospectus on their sites, or you can read them where you would normally read SEC filings. Both sites also have similar cost structures (to the money lender, 1% of interest and principal).
In particular, Lending Club touts the following chart…
The chart is annotated with the following description:
A $10,000 investment in Lending Club notes in June 2007 is worth more today than the same investment in any other major asset class**
** Based on Average Net Annualized Returns from June 2007 (inception) to October 2009. This comparison does not reflect differences in liquidity. Past performance is no guarantee of future results.
… this chart clearly showing their outperformance to the market, right? Not so – a junk-of-junk bond portfolio (which is essentially what Lending Club and Prosper deal with) should have a volatility that is at least that of a short duration high-yield bond index and most definitely not mirror that of the short term treasury graph.
Be very careful of straight-line performance graphs, and this is no exception. You’ll notice even the 1-3 year treasury bond index exhibits some variation in returns, while Lending Club’s graph is nearly as straight as an arrow.
Is Lending Club’s loan portfolio vastly superior than Prosper’s?
The answer to this question is no. The reason deals with the carrying value of the loan. It assumes that loans that are not in default have a carrying value of par. As there is no secondary market for the loans on Lending Club’s books, current loans must be carried at par value even when the credit risk would result in a significant downward valuation from par.
There are two ways to default on a loan – stop making interest payments, or by not paying the principal when it is due. Lending Club’s numbers properly reflect the default rate of borrowers not making interest payments, but does not reflect the future default rates of the failure to pay principal.
Prosper has data available for loans originated from November 1, 2005 to today. The loans have been standardized for three years. 91.1% of current loans (by dollar value) are current, which means 8.9% of loans are non-current. These reflect the failure to pay interest.
In terms of principal collection, 22.9% of loans have been charged off. This is netted by 0.5% of collection agency collections, leaving a net charge off of 22.4%.
Lending Club has 9.1% of loans that are non-current ($5,559,632 late/defaulted vs. $63,651,765 funded), which is very close to Prosper’s 8.9% non-current loan rate.
Here’s the big reporting problem – Lending Club has only been in operation for 2.5 years. If they are giving out three year loans, then none of their existing loan portfolio has reached maturity yet (minus pre-payments), which means that the principal payment default risk has not been represented in their performance statistics. Prosper’s data runs back 4.2 years.
My guess is that once Lending Club’s loans start reaching maturity that the default rate will start to skyrocket, comparable to Prosper’s net 22% charge-off rate of their entire loan portfolio.
If there is any way I could short Lending Club’s portfolio at their existing carrying value, I would place a fairly heavy bet on it. Unfortunately, there is no way to do this. If my hypothesis is correct, my prediction is that in 1.7 years that Lending Club’s blended loan portfolio will look closer to Prosper’s, which currently has a 38.4% default rate on historical loans (for matured loans, Prosper is at a rate of $42,260,196 in net charge-offs vs. $110,000,706 loaned).
To say that Lending Club has a “historical default rate of 3%” is true, but the key word is “historical” – this will rise very sharply and this is why you don’t see Prosper advertising default rates – because it is ridiculously high. In order to be compensated for this risk, investors should rightfully be demanding rates that would make credit card vendors bashful.
Notwithstanding this analysis, there is educational value for people to invest small (and I mean small) amounts of money just to demonstrate how difficult it is to make money even when allured with the promise of high rates of return. Instead of a return on capital, the return of capital becomes paramount in the loan business.
I invite the management of either Prosper or Lending Club to comment here, rather than email. My analysis could be wrong, and would appreciate any corrections.
Divestor… thanks for your post. Gotta love Google alerts;) The points you make about the maturity of Prosper’s data are poignant… Since launch, Prosper has facilitated over $188 million consisting of approx. 30,000 loans… making Prosper the largest peer-to-peer lender in the world, but more significantly, providing Prosper with the richest, thickest peer-to-peer lending performance data set available. Prosper has incorporated the data from past lending performance into its current rating system (implemented in July 2009) and early indications are that the performance of Prosper’s portfolio will be dramatically different going forward: http://bit.ly/6wVlAk Our data set is actually too thick to download into an excel file easily (takes some skills that I won’t go into), but we do have a real-time publicly available API, which numerous academics, analysts, and developers have utilized: http://www.prosper.com/tools/
In terms of yesterday’s post… you may have seen it, but in case your readers haven’t, Prosper issued a refute to The Big Money story you referenced:
http://bit.ly/8az3Pv
Don’t hesitate to let us know if you have ?’s, etc.
Best,
Tiffany Fox
Prosper Communications Director
They call Tiffany the fireman.
Running around all over town putting out flames.
That’s funny… I took a personality test many years ago related to careers and fireman was at the top of list:-) No, I’m not joking.
The Big Money has published a response to the “refute” that Tiffany mentions.
http://www.thebigmoney.com/blogs/sausage/2010/01/22/exchange-prospercom
Additionally, there have been several other detailed responses to Prosper’s “refute”
http://www.prospers.org/forum/article_you_are_unlikely_to_prosper-t18287.0.html;msg322323#msg322323
http://www.prospers.org/forum/article_you_are_unlikely_to_prosper-t18287.0.html;msg322348#msg322348
http://www.prospers.org/forum/article_you_are_unlikely_to_prosper-t18287.0.html;msg322372#msg322372
“…Prosper issued a refute to The Big Money story you referenced…”
It looks like Prosper doesn’t plan to inform its readership of The Big Money’s reply to Prosper’s request for retraction…?
Happy to… Here it is…
“An Exchange on Prosper.com”… http://bit.ly/89caF8
One thing to note is that we have requested a correction to the statment “that’s a total of 30 percent over three years—on the subset of those loans (those that charged 18 percent or more)”
It should state, “that’s a total of 16 percent…”
Because Prosper loans are three year amortizing loans with monthly principal payments, an average annual loss rate of 10 percent equates to a cumulative dollar loss rate of approximately 16 percent (we rounded up) over the life of a loan rather than the 30 percent loss rate the calculation of three times 10 percent suggests.
Tiffany I didn’t realize I could get direct PMI employee feedback here. I tried to get Cameron & the recently departed Andrew to call me back regarding this loan I bid $1000 on that never made a payment.It’s been months now.I’m beginning to worry they aren’t calling back. I was assured that ALL loans that were large were automatically verified against fraud. How can a loan for $24,000 that never makes a payment be anything but fraud? Can you tell me what is being done to collect on this loan or refund me my money via you guys “supposed” 100% fraud guarantee?
http://www.prosper.com/invest/listing.aspx?listingID=208191
“Happy to… Here it is… ”
Thanks, Tiff. But why is “here” divestor.com instead of prosper.com? I asked that same question there as a comment to the blog, but Prosper hasn’t (yet?) posted it.
While I’m here, last Wednesday I also submitted for posting:
vvvvvv
“We received an inquiry ….”
Point of clarification: onlookers might take this to mean the questioner expected anonymity. But that’s not the case.
^^^^^^
But the above hasn’t been posted either. Which rule was violated which prevented that message from going up? I ask so that I don’t spend time writing something that won’t see the light of day, and so that Prosper’s busy moderator doesn’t need to spend time reading it.
While the discussion you are having is fascinating, it has little to do with the article at hand, which asked to point out flaws in my analysis, mainly:
a) Lending Club’s default rates will rise dramatically over the next 1.7 years;
b) Given historical default rates on Prosper, it is unlikely that “6 to 14 percent” rates are sufficient compensation for investors.
If the conversation goes too off-topic, I will close this. Thank you.
Ms. Fox,
After you respond to Bamalucky’s question, please address this one. http://www.prosper.com/invest/listing.aspx?listingID=157448
was a similarly sized loan with no payments that was repurchased by Prosper. Coincidentally, an officer of prosper was a lender (note buyer) on that transaction.
Sacha,i’m sorry to use your place to get a response but you can’t get a comment through on their blog nor will you get a return phone call from PMI when they find out you are a lender (former) with questions about the late,default,collection agency process.
Sacha,to address question B.. how can they use 6-14% anyway? Isn’t that misleading investors into thinking 6% is the minimum you can make?
Shouldn’t it read -100% instead of 6%? The median isn’t even getting 0%
Sacha – Thanks again for your post… and agree the conversation has gotten way off topic. Apologies.
New Horizon – email me if you’d like to continue this conversation. tiffany at prosper dot com
What about my questions? You skipped right over me. I only invested $32,000 so I guess I don’t warrant a reply. See what happens Sacha. That’s why lenders are pissed off.
Nice Tie Tiffany
“Be very careful of straight-line performance graphs…”
The other point I might have made is that both LC and PMI have compared their returns to other asset classes during a period of time that includes a recession. But by most counts, we’re just now EXITING a recession – the economic environment is different from here on out. Pre-recessionary data is available for Prosper loans, fwiw.
BTW, have you seen fred93’s blog? (Just google fred93.)
New Horizon,money stuffed in a mattress outperforms Prosper by 3% over the past 3 years.
Thats right. The median return for lenders at PMI is NEGATIVE 3%.
Thats what needs to be compared.
Tiffany in the spirit of full disclosure,can you share your lender name with us so we can see how your PMI lending is going?
Tiffany wrote: “New Horizon – email me …”
Email sent from chan….@gmail.com
(I mention this in case she gets Email from elsewhere claiming to be NewHorizon.)
Tiffany once again shows that PMI refuses to answer any lender inquiries. Too bad I have no outlet to the AP. Thanks Sacha & other reporters who are finally digging into Prosper & refuse to republish the canned press releases from Tiffany. They have a place called success stories on their website that chronicalizes borrowers who get loans & they systematically delete these as the borrowers go late. Is that full disclosure or honesty? Lenders can’t get answers,or returned phone calls. Prosper routinely lies in court & the SEC. Both fully documented. Prosper has a D+ rating from the Better Business Bureau,they deleted their user forum with over 400,000 posts chock full of useful advice to new lenders. There is also a class action lawsuit(lenders) now that never makes it into the news.
One comment ended up in the spam queue and I have put it back on. However, this discussion is getting horribly off topic and I will close this thread. Thank you.